I found myself in Balboa Park with the family. While they were busy, I wandered around, and happened upon a little booth that looked like a religious thing. As it happens, it was an atheist group. I was pleased to see them out and about, and chatted a bit about what they were doing, what their goals were, what it was like to talk to people who come up and challenge them, etc. I was pleased to see some general representation of the atheist community, and hope that they are able to inform the public about what they are all about.
As one of them said, most of what people learn about atheists come from their pastors, and that might be a slanted view. So they enjoy reconciling those differences when people come to chat with them, and finding out exactly where they disagree.
Further up the road, I came across a tent with people handing out free water. The water had bible verses on it. I approached, and one guy greeted me warmly and asked if I had any questions.
So I asked him my question. I said that I want to go to heaven, and I don't want to go to hell. What do I need to do to make that happen? This is indeed an honest question of mine.
He seemed a little taken aback, and showed me his water bottle, with John 3:16 on it, and read it to me. Whoever believes in Jesus will have everlasting life.
So all I have to do is believe in Jesus, and I'll go to heaven? That's it? It doesn't matter what I do?
He sort of turned back to the water bottle, then stumbled around a little. I let him off the hook, saying that I was "playing dumb", but that I really was interested in the answer.
He called over someone whose name was close to Janet. I posed the same question to her, and she responded back with questions of her own, asking about my religious upbringing and background. I shared that with her, but at the same time questioned why that mattered. She just wanted to know where I was coming from, she said.
She then asked if she could share her personal testimony with me. Sure, knock yourself out. She said she grew up godless, and got into lots of trouble as a kid. And when she got older, and got married, she had miscarriages. I sympathized. But then she got pregnant, and she went in for that ultrasound, and was so impressed by the miracle of birth, and started saying things like "only through the grace of God could that happen". That's where I stopped her. How do we KNOW that it's through the grace of God?
She then went to the old "well look around... look at the sky, look at the TREES!". I knew I was in trouble when she went to the trees line. How do you think this all got here? In my head I was labeling this as a classic "argument from ignorance". "We don't know how this got here, therefore God." The first guy piped in, saying that I was a software developer, and it was just like writing computer programs.
I said I was still having problems understanding. She then went through the Ray Comfort "have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen something?" I even completed her next thought, saying that I'd looked upon a women with lust. Her expression was like "Oh, you've heard this before?!" She asked about sin, and I said that sin was such a loaded word. It basically presupposes a god and his rules. I said that I don't really believe in sin as such, since I'm not yet convinced that there is a god to back it up.
At some point, she asked me if I was "from that other booth". I told her I was not, and really did try to impress upon her that I wasn't pulling her leg or jerking her around. I was asking honest questions, and really was interested in hearing her answers, which was the truth.
In an effort to try to get her to understand my point of view, I said "Ok, let's say that I tell you about a different God. Call him God2. Do you believe in God2?" Of course she didn't. She asked if this god sent Jesus to earth to die for our sins. I said triumphantly "No, but he sent his son Jesus2!" The other guy piped up about needing evidence, like fulfilled prophecies. I said that in the Bible2, there was a book of Isiah2 with fulfilled prophecies. Did they believe me now? Sadly, they did not. I had a hard time getting them to grasp my rhetorical point, but I think they finally got there in the end. Was there anything I could tell them that would make them believe in God2? No. Was there anything they could tell me that would make me believe in God? She finally admitted that it "just comes down to faith", and that I'd basically need to wait for some sort of revelation. That, to me, is the end of an intellectual conversation, so I politely disentangled myself and left.
All in all, it was a really interesting conversation, and I enjoyed it.
No comments:
Post a Comment